I am also interested in this subject. Although I haven't gotten around to doing my own reading and research, I do enjoy watching lectures and videos by scholars on the subject of the three Abrahamic religions, especially from a historical context. If you haven't already, I would really recommend checking out the videos on the "Religion for Breakfast" channel on YouTube.
Hey thanks so much Imran! I'm glad you're enjoying the blog. The middle essays in this series are a sort of a big long analysis of some of Yahweh's worst behavior. I think it's important to establish his character, but I can imagine it might get a little dry for many readers. Essays five and six, and maybe one or two more after that, are sort of a payoff in that investment, where I want to investigate just what this history of ours means to us today.
I know I've watched a couple of episodes of Religion for Breakfast in the past. They were good. I just subscribed and put the most recent episode in my queue. It's called "What was the real name of Jesus?", which is an important question for me. (I tend to go with "Yeshua," but I've heard alternatives.)
Yeah, when I've been reading through the Old Testament, I sometimes forget that this is a foundational text for Islam as well. The Judaism connection is obvious, as this is a story of the people of Israel, and the Christianity part is obvious to me, thanks to my upbringing. It seems like there are some really interesting developments in Muslim thought lately, and I would like to know and understand more about it. I remember some time about twenty years ago, a Muslim friend of mine started talking about the story of the Garden of Eden, and he had a very literal interpretation. At the time I said, "Yeah, but you know that story is just a myth." He just glossed right over that. I am a little embarrassed about it now, as I have come to have a much better appreciation for the importance of these "myths." If nothing else, they have left an indelible mark on the psyche of billions of human beings.
You might be interested in this blog, which is authored by a reader of The Science of Dao. He talks about a lot of interesting aspects of modern day Islam. He goes into intricate detail of some of the different subgroups of Islam. That's a topic that I barely understand, and should have a better handle on.
I'll check out the blog you mentioned. Another couple of good YouTube channels I watch are MythVision Podcast and Let's Talk Religion. The latter one is most around Islam in a historical context but he touches other religions too. The most recent video is about another historical figure from around the same time as Jesus who has a very similar myth. Among writers, I enjoy the works of Bart Ehrmann.
Thanks for posting this. I just read "Jesus and Yahweh: The Names Divine," by Harold Bloom. If you don't know the book, I'm confident you would enjoy it.
Dec 19, 2022·edited Dec 19, 2022Liked by John P Sullivan
I am of the opinion that the Elohim were the Hebrew pantheon, led by El-Yahweh, The Most High God. He was responsible for the creation in Genesis 1.
The LORD God, Yahweh-Jehovah, God of Israel, is his son. It is Yahweh-Jehovah who undertakes the second creation on the seventh day, while his father and the other Elohim are resting.
It was Yahweh-Jehovah, the jealous God, who persuaded Abram/Abraham, to convert from polytheism to monotheism and to worship him alone.
There seem to be many instances in the OT where what can only be deliberate deceptions are used to make it appear that there is only one "God" when in fact there were/are several. The two Yahwehs are conflated and mistaken for one. (The same tactic was used to turn King Arthur into a myth/legend. The stories of King Arthur span several centuries so we are told he could not possibly have been a real man. In fact there were several Kings Arthur, all very real - but that's another story!).
It would also not surprise me to learn that these beings were/are the same beings who, in other times/places/cultures, were also known as the Anunnaki, The Titans, The Olympians, etc, etc. And, as to where El-on might fit into this picture, well....
The part about the father/son Yahwehs is fascinating! Any good reading along these lines?
Mauro Biglino takes both of these creation stories as not "creation of the universe" kinds of events, but more like creation of an environment on Earth that was somewhat habitable by these Elohim. He takes the first creation story to be the creation of a biolab/biodome thing in the Middle East (maybe Iraq), and the second creation story about the life forms they engineered there (bred based on the Earth's natural species). He points out that "in the beginning" does not necessarily refer to the beginning of time. It could be the beginning of many other things, such as the beginning of the Elohim's time on Earth.
I sort of agree with him on the second creation myth. I sort of feel like the first creation myth is a later addition, and reflects the more omni-everything God of later Judaism. The first chapter feels more like poetic story-telling, the second chapter and onwards more of an account of things past.
I don't know enough about King Arthur. He's cool though. I want to get to the Poetic Edda soon...
I express a similar thought on Anunnaki, The Olympians, etc, etc, somewhere in here...
There were in fact at least two Kings Arthur (probably five in total): King Arthur II (503-579) - he of the knights and the round table - was a direct male-line descendant of King Arthur I (died c400). Arthur I was the eldest son of Emperor Magnus Maximus, the only son of Caesar Flavius Crispus (the eldest son of the British Emperor Constantine The Great by his first wife Minerva). Constantine The Great’s mother was the British Empress Helen of The Cross, who claimed descent from The Holy Family through her father, that merry old soul, King Cole of Colchester.
Until the devastating comet, which laid waste to much of Britain in 562, the coronation of Arthur II as King of Glamorgan & Gwent was probably the biggest event of the sixth century. It is well recorded in written English and British/Welsh records
Have you read "The Gods of Eden," by William Bramley? That was a life-changing book for me.
1: The documentary hypothesis is a myth, it has now entirely collapsed into Confirmation Biases. Someone just wrote it
2: The word Elohim is used for humans also
3: Elohim is a abstract concentrated plural in the Bible. For instance, the single person of Samuel is called Elohim, just like YHWH is called Elohim. Just like the word Sheep
Thank you for your provocative comment Waldo! I've never really taken a hyper-critical look at the documentary hypothesis, because the evidence I've seen to support it is pretty convincing, and it just seemed to make a lot of sense to me. I would love to take a more critical look at the question though. Do you have any suggestions for reading about the documentary hypothesis being a myth?
If you mean to say that one person wrote the whole Bible, or the Tanakh, or even just the Torah, you're going to have a hard time convincing me of that. Even just reading the book of Isaiah, I can feel a definite shift in writing style about half way through. (Around chapter 40.)
I would love to see any examples of humans being called Elohim. Are there specific verses you could point me to? Do you have a verse for the Samuel/Elohim reference?
If you are referring to Psalm 82, I know it is commonly claimed that the other characters in the assembly are human judges, but I don't buy it. That interpretation seems like an apologetic motion towards the assertion that there is only one god in the Bible.
I am also interested in this subject. Although I haven't gotten around to doing my own reading and research, I do enjoy watching lectures and videos by scholars on the subject of the three Abrahamic religions, especially from a historical context. If you haven't already, I would really recommend checking out the videos on the "Religion for Breakfast" channel on YouTube.
Hey thanks so much Imran! I'm glad you're enjoying the blog. The middle essays in this series are a sort of a big long analysis of some of Yahweh's worst behavior. I think it's important to establish his character, but I can imagine it might get a little dry for many readers. Essays five and six, and maybe one or two more after that, are sort of a payoff in that investment, where I want to investigate just what this history of ours means to us today.
I know I've watched a couple of episodes of Religion for Breakfast in the past. They were good. I just subscribed and put the most recent episode in my queue. It's called "What was the real name of Jesus?", which is an important question for me. (I tend to go with "Yeshua," but I've heard alternatives.)
Yeah, when I've been reading through the Old Testament, I sometimes forget that this is a foundational text for Islam as well. The Judaism connection is obvious, as this is a story of the people of Israel, and the Christianity part is obvious to me, thanks to my upbringing. It seems like there are some really interesting developments in Muslim thought lately, and I would like to know and understand more about it. I remember some time about twenty years ago, a Muslim friend of mine started talking about the story of the Garden of Eden, and he had a very literal interpretation. At the time I said, "Yeah, but you know that story is just a myth." He just glossed right over that. I am a little embarrassed about it now, as I have come to have a much better appreciation for the importance of these "myths." If nothing else, they have left an indelible mark on the psyche of billions of human beings.
You might be interested in this blog, which is authored by a reader of The Science of Dao. He talks about a lot of interesting aspects of modern day Islam. He goes into intricate detail of some of the different subgroups of Islam. That's a topic that I barely understand, and should have a better handle on.
https://thomasmaldonado.substack.com/
Hey if you know anyone who is interested in these kinds of topics, please share! I'm always trying to pick up more readers. ;-)
I'll check out the blog you mentioned. Another couple of good YouTube channels I watch are MythVision Podcast and Let's Talk Religion. The latter one is most around Islam in a historical context but he touches other religions too. The most recent video is about another historical figure from around the same time as Jesus who has a very similar myth. Among writers, I enjoy the works of Bart Ehrmann.
Thanks for posting this. I just read "Jesus and Yahweh: The Names Divine," by Harold Bloom. If you don't know the book, I'm confident you would enjoy it.
Thanks Jamey! I added it to my "prioritized" list (https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/578242-john?order=a&ref=nav_mybooks&shelf=priotitized)
I am of the opinion that the Elohim were the Hebrew pantheon, led by El-Yahweh, The Most High God. He was responsible for the creation in Genesis 1.
The LORD God, Yahweh-Jehovah, God of Israel, is his son. It is Yahweh-Jehovah who undertakes the second creation on the seventh day, while his father and the other Elohim are resting.
It was Yahweh-Jehovah, the jealous God, who persuaded Abram/Abraham, to convert from polytheism to monotheism and to worship him alone.
There seem to be many instances in the OT where what can only be deliberate deceptions are used to make it appear that there is only one "God" when in fact there were/are several. The two Yahwehs are conflated and mistaken for one. (The same tactic was used to turn King Arthur into a myth/legend. The stories of King Arthur span several centuries so we are told he could not possibly have been a real man. In fact there were several Kings Arthur, all very real - but that's another story!).
It would also not surprise me to learn that these beings were/are the same beings who, in other times/places/cultures, were also known as the Anunnaki, The Titans, The Olympians, etc, etc. And, as to where El-on might fit into this picture, well....
The part about the father/son Yahwehs is fascinating! Any good reading along these lines?
Mauro Biglino takes both of these creation stories as not "creation of the universe" kinds of events, but more like creation of an environment on Earth that was somewhat habitable by these Elohim. He takes the first creation story to be the creation of a biolab/biodome thing in the Middle East (maybe Iraq), and the second creation story about the life forms they engineered there (bred based on the Earth's natural species). He points out that "in the beginning" does not necessarily refer to the beginning of time. It could be the beginning of many other things, such as the beginning of the Elohim's time on Earth.
I sort of agree with him on the second creation myth. I sort of feel like the first creation myth is a later addition, and reflects the more omni-everything God of later Judaism. The first chapter feels more like poetic story-telling, the second chapter and onwards more of an account of things past.
I don't know enough about King Arthur. He's cool though. I want to get to the Poetic Edda soon...
I express a similar thought on Anunnaki, The Olympians, etc, etc, somewhere in here...
John, the source of these ideas for me was a presentation given by Luke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_HVHDRrgZ0&list=PLp2t5UaSr3P_oSOoM8aNWhVx7yOWYYHPo&index=3
The whole series of presentations he gave fascinated me to the extent that I transcribed them all:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/91az1hwezx7bygv/AABnY9AP_gGuGtwl7OqXLXiSa?dl=0
Luke also has a Wordpress blog called, "Lex Maxim."
If you want to learn about King Arthur, please read the recently re-published "King Arthur Conspiracy," by Wilson & Blackett (Cymroglyphics):
https://www.cymroglyphics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=94.
There were in fact at least two Kings Arthur (probably five in total): King Arthur II (503-579) - he of the knights and the round table - was a direct male-line descendant of King Arthur I (died c400). Arthur I was the eldest son of Emperor Magnus Maximus, the only son of Caesar Flavius Crispus (the eldest son of the British Emperor Constantine The Great by his first wife Minerva). Constantine The Great’s mother was the British Empress Helen of The Cross, who claimed descent from The Holy Family through her father, that merry old soul, King Cole of Colchester.
Until the devastating comet, which laid waste to much of Britain in 562, the coronation of Arthur II as King of Glamorgan & Gwent was probably the biggest event of the sixth century. It is well recorded in written English and British/Welsh records
Have you read "The Gods of Eden," by William Bramley? That was a life-changing book for me.
This is excellent and cannot wait to read more. Clif Highs substance sent me here!
1: The documentary hypothesis is a myth, it has now entirely collapsed into Confirmation Biases. Someone just wrote it
2: The word Elohim is used for humans also
3: Elohim is a abstract concentrated plural in the Bible. For instance, the single person of Samuel is called Elohim, just like YHWH is called Elohim. Just like the word Sheep
Thank you for your provocative comment Waldo! I've never really taken a hyper-critical look at the documentary hypothesis, because the evidence I've seen to support it is pretty convincing, and it just seemed to make a lot of sense to me. I would love to take a more critical look at the question though. Do you have any suggestions for reading about the documentary hypothesis being a myth?
If you mean to say that one person wrote the whole Bible, or the Tanakh, or even just the Torah, you're going to have a hard time convincing me of that. Even just reading the book of Isaiah, I can feel a definite shift in writing style about half way through. (Around chapter 40.)
I would love to see any examples of humans being called Elohim. Are there specific verses you could point me to? Do you have a verse for the Samuel/Elohim reference?
If you are referring to Psalm 82, I know it is commonly claimed that the other characters in the assembly are human judges, but I don't buy it. That interpretation seems like an apologetic motion towards the assertion that there is only one god in the Bible.